The Catcher in the Rye: Week 3
Post your second response by Tuesday, February 20. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
The Road: Week 3
Post your second response by Tuesday, February 20. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
In conclusion with the novel, within the chapters of 18-26, the character of Holden is a representation of a teen isn’t sure or struggles to figure out where his place truly is.
ReplyDeleteThe main character may be unreliable when being in the role of a narrator, but he can be honest with his feelings depending on his selection of interactions; like Phoebe or Mr. Antolini. It’s at the point of book where the reader can witness Holden’s feelings and thoughts are surfacing. For example, during chapter 22, Phoebe then asks Holden what he would want to do for a living if he had a choice. “That’s all I’d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it’s crazy, but that’s the only thing I’d like to be”( Salinger 173 ). He doesn’t want to have an occupation where it’s solely chosen by people that wish to have pats on the back or earn loads of money, but to be a person that protects the youth.
Mr. Antolini states this with concern to Holden is experiencing a fall that will them lead to be bitter and angry towards the world, just like that guys that Caulfield despised in school. “I have a feeling that you’re riding for some terrible, terrible fall”( Salinger 186 ). Holden realizes that he himself created a trap of loneliness and isolation from his acts of alienation.
That he is the embodiment of youth that doesn’t have full comprehension of where they fit in the world and is a journey on trying to find himself and his meaning in life. This novel is about self-discovery and illustrates a picture of what some teenager deal with when they come of age of adulthood. Holden was just a confused teenager who was stuck in between childhood and maturity, where all teenagers are forced to adjust to a new lifestyle, adulthood, whether they don’t wish to or not.
I also think it's about his self conflict. Holden finds himself conflicted a lot throughout the book and often tries to take the easy way out. He wanted to just drop everything to try and move to Colorado when things got tough. This was a very immature thing to say and do, especially when he knows he means a lot to his sister. I think he learned at the end that he doesn't t have to run away from his problems and he needs to face them.
DeleteKayleana I agree when you say he learned he doesn't have to run. When his sister gave him back his "protection" hat he finally realized Colorado wasn't the smartest thing. He decided to stay for her and becomes more realistic with his decisions.
DeleteHim deciding to stay also, I think, has something to do with the fact that he connected again with Phoebe and saw her innocence when she was on the merry-go-round. He finally found something that he had been craving the whole book, an interaction with a person who wasn't taking advantage of him and who he knew he could trust.
DeleteKayleana, I agree with how you said it was about his self conflict and how he always seemed to take the easy way out. It made me realize that that is how a lot of society is today as well. People are always trying to find the easy way out instead of actually work through problems and find an actual solution.
DeleteIn chapters 18-26 Holden's character comes though and I could finally understand him. He is still grieving about his brother's death. He said, "They all came when Allie died, the whole goddam stupid bunch of them." then goes on to say, "I wasn't there. I was still in the hospital. I had to go to the hospital and all after I hurt my hand." (Salinger 155). Maybe he feels guilty about not being able to go to Allie's funeral, then that reflects the way he acts and treats others. I feel like he was different before Allie died. More emotionally stable, and he had that support there when Allie was alive. At the end of the book, however, I think he realized that he did have someone and did have that support in Phoebe that he just forgot about. When Phoebe offered to go with him when he was planning on leaving to go to Colorado I knew that Phoebe felt the same way about Holden, and that she goes to him for everything as well. The last part of this book showed all of the things Holden has been through. The one that really made me shocked was the story at his school of James Castle. He explains, "I put on my bathrobe and I ran downstairs too. He was dead, and his teeth, and the blood, were all over the place, and nobody would even go near him." (Salinger 170). This is a dramatic experience. Holden had to go through the closest person to him dying, then this event happens. He needs someone to talk to about all of this bottled up emotions. When he went home and saw Phoebe I knew he would feel better. I knew she would talk to him and listen. I could tell by the way he talks about her that she was the next closest to him other than Allie, and that she means a lot to him. I think if Holden was able to live with his family and not be sent away he would find great benefit from that, because that is where he finds the most support. I don't think Holden realized or wanted to realize that the best choice he made was going home.
ReplyDeleteAs you mentioned about the memory about James Castle, I was also very shocked when Holden recalled that event. I can imagine that it's difficult to witness someone or classmate that you've seen around the hallways or campus, nonetheless interacting with that person and letting the person borrow your jacket. Holden has been through a fair amount of traumatic events within his life, and the best to have closure is to vent and talk about with someone. If he's always going to hold it in, then it'll enhance his depression more than he already had before that event.
DeleteI liked how you talked about Holden feeling guilty for missing Allies funeral and that's why he acts the way he does. I couldn't imagine missing my brothers funeral, let alone having a sibling die at all. I do believe Allie's death had a big role in Holden's attachment issues because he was scared to connect with other people until the end when like you said he realized Phoebe was there for him.
DeleteI agree about him feeling guilty for not being able to go to Allie's funeral. It left a big open part of him and he wasn't able to get the closure he needed and I think that is why he is so depressed and is unable to make meaningful relationships with other people. Not only the death of his brother, but the death of his friend and other obstacles in his life have left him traumatized and broken. And like you said, until he was reminded that he had Phoebe he was just wandering around feeling alone.
DeleteI agree that he feels awful and guilty about missing his brothers funeral and how that has an effect on him today. I agree that he finally saw Pheobe as a support system after spending time with her again. I believe that he needed to get back around her to realize how different he is around Pheobe instead of being grumpy and stubborn without her.
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In chapter 18 Holden seems to grow more interested in women, in particular Jane. Also again
Holden tries to relieve his loneliness by planning to meet Carl Luce, a friend from whooton
school. I was however a little confused by this chapter when the topic of war was brought up, He
claims he could never do it but then says he would sit on top of an atomic bomb which has the
theme of suicide again. I’m sure it’s probably not as complicated as i’m thinking but if someone
could clear that part up I would appreciate it. When Holden meets with Luce he badgers him
about his sex life and Luce repeatedly tells him to drop the subject and makes the comment that
Holden has an immature mind. Because Holden agrees with this statement it shows he’s aware
of his immaturity but can’t help himself because he goes right back to the topic of sex. Luce is
becoming an adult and Holden can’t understand why someone would want to settle down with a
chinese lady unless it was for sexual reasons. People can start to see Holden needs help and
Luce suggests Holden sees a psychoanalyst but Holden protects his alienation, by implying a
homosexual relationship between Luce and his psychoanalyst father, resulting in Luce leaving
Holden alone so he’s right back where he started being alone. The ducks reappear in chapter
20 and Holden notices there are no ducks at the lake. This is because the ducks have adapted
to survive which is something Holden needs to begin to understand since he can no longer
protect childhood which is why he gets upset when he breaks the record. It is clear Holden is
still suffering, angry and hurt from Allie’s death and connects dying of pneumonia to his
brothers. He snaps out of his delusion when he thinks of how Phoebe would feel if he died of
pneumonia. Because Holden was thinking of society and not himself that is what saved his life.
Holden again contrasts children vs. adults when he sees Phoebe sleeping in D.B.’s room and
children once again comes out on top. It seems only children and childish things delight Holden
because they’re not phony and he proves his point when Phoebe accepts Holden and is open
with him about everything he’s missed out on. Children don’t care about judgement and I think
that’s why Holden is determined to stay in childhood but at the same time wants to do adult
things in some ways but is frustrated because he doesn’t know how to act properly whereas
when you’re a kid there’s no ‘expected’ way to be. Holden admits he was again expelled from
school making the ironic statement that Phoebe is a madman for keeping a pillow over her head
(because she’s scared for Holden) but he’s talking about going to a ranch in Colorado.. Clearly
he’s the madman. I found it interesting that Holden likes children better but Phoebe is a child
that won’t let him get away with his idea that his alienation is society’s fault.
Even when
Deleteconfronted by a child Holden thinks of a way to escape and his mind goes to James Castle who
commited suicide after being bullied by classmates. It becomes clear when Holden admits he
likes Allie and talking to Phoebe that his hate of living could stem from the idea that he’s trying
to preserve a dead world of Allie. The title of the book finally makes sense because like Sara
said in the last discussion Holden tells Phoebe his goal is to be a ‘catcher in the rye’. He want to
save children from falling off a cliff as well as saving himself from falling into adulthood but this
has no reality because you can’t stop yourself from growing up unless you’re dead which could
be partly why Holden thinks about death so much. Although Holden heard the lyrics wrong from
the poem he still interpreted them in his innocent way. Holden wants someone to catch him like
Mr. Antolini tried to do for James Castle. It is also symbolic when Holden gives up his hunting
hat because he’s trying to protect his sister and giving up his own protection to save her.
Phoebe and Mr. Antolini are food for Holden because they don’t let him get away with his usual
evasions. Mr. Antolini understands Holden and tries to show Holden how to be happy by
connecting happiness with being apart of things as well as showing how Holden’s alienation and
high expectations affect Holden’s happiness. Holden has panic attacks of falling, being a
reference to his catcher fantasy and his fear of growing up to die. Continuously thinking of his
brother Allie has trapped Holden in childhood because Holden wants Allie to be his catcher. He
sees children as innocent and can’t believe a child would write “fuck you” even though
throughout this whole piece he uses profanity. When Phoebe gives Holden his protection hat
back it forces him to give up his alienation and to be realistic deciding not to move out west. We
are left with an ambiguous interpretation of the book. Holden remains evasive and refuses to
apply himself but his resilience about what he’s going to do could possibly hint that Holden is
growing up and he’s starting to lose his negative viewpoint on adulthood. Holden will remain a
independent and contradictory person so his path from here is what he decides to do with it.
I really liked when you mentioned the point of Holden tends to relate more to a younger crowd because they are less judgmental than adults are and he finds he can be himself without getting negative feedback or shut down.
DeleteI think when Holden finds that "fuck you" is written, he is more upset at the fact a child could see it and then possibly ask what it meant more than a child writing it. He wants to preserve the innocence of the child which is why he wants to be the catcher in the rye, and having to explain to a kid what the f word means would cause them to lose a little bit of innocence. But I really like that you brought up the point of the hunting hat because I didn't think about that in terms of him giving up his protection. I more saw Phoebe giving it back, and Holden finally being able to have a relationship with a person who wasn't using him.
DeleteIn conclusion to the book you can see Holden´s maturity grow little by little. In chapter 19, when he was at the bar with Carl Luce, I got the drift that Carl still thought of him as a kid because Holden was badgering him with questions about sex and his sex life. I believe Holden wanted someone older to look up to when it came to girls and I think that´s how he thought of Carl. When he goes to Pheobe´s school and sees the cuss words written on the walls, he becomes flustered. I feel like he was acting this way because he still saw Pheobe at her age, as a child. Pheobe wanted so badly to run away and move out west with him but he refused to let her which angered her. Seeing his sister I believe gave him hope in a way because when he was around her he wasn´t acting like he did while at Pencey. He wasn´t constantly complaining. At the end of the last chapter when he talks about attending a new school in the fall made me feel happy for him in a way because although he is very opinionated and doesn´t agree with a lot, I feel like he is more matured than he was in the first chapters and he is actually growing up and seeing what he could do to put in more effort. I believe that his brother Allie had do deal with him growing up as well because it had effected him in a bad way in the beginning of the book and how he dealt with it but I think he is taking his grief and making it a good outcome.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the reason why Holden seems to gradually act mature is that he's in a setting is a mainly dominated by adults and that affects his mindset. Throughout the novel, Holden seems to admire youth and tends to be at ease only when he's in a youthful setting. For example, when he interacted with his sister, Phoebe, he was comfortable with expressing his thoughts without having to make a facade to cover up. Or when he was at the brink of crying in public as he witnesses Phoebe enjoying her childhood as she rode the carousel.
DeleteI agree that he was definitely trying to find somebody to look up to when talking to Carl Luce. I think part of his struggle with it though, might be, that his older brother DB is always gone and away. In the second part of the book when he ran into DB's ex, he acted very differently. I think because he has been sent away so many times and because DB isn't around he struggles to find that person to look up to. I also believe that he acted very differently at Pencey than he did when he was around Phoebe. I agree with Sara when he said that he isn't forced to put up a facade around Phoebe.
DeleteYes Phoebe seems to be the only person Holden can be himself around. I believe some of this is because Phoebe is a child and from the book we know Holden has a tendency to side with children being that he finds adults phony.
DeleteKenzie, I like your point about not having a role model. Because the first few pages of the book, Holden told us that DB was living in Hollywood and out on his own which left Holden to deal with not only the trauma of his brother's death but having to figure out growing up and adulthood without a person to look up to.
DeleteI think that also has to do with his want of being the catcher in the rye, so that he can guide the kids who are "falling" into adulthood and preserve their youthfulness as well as guide them and inform them on how to become and adult and make that transition.
DeleteCompleting "The Catcher in the Rye" by J.D Salinger really opened my eyes to certain questions I had throughout the rest of the book. From the beginning I had always wondered where the title came from. Phoebe brings up the point that Holden doesn't like anything, which brings in the idea that Holden is depressed, as this path continues Holden answers that he likes Allie. Phoebe then points out the obvious, Allie is dead. Soon this idea of dead children transpires into Holden remembering a poem, falsely, in which we gain great insight into what Holden thinks about himself as a person. Holden thought the poem said "“If a body catch a body comin’ through the rye.”. Although this is not the correct quote from the poem it still conveys what Holden thinks of himself. Holden continues on to describe that he sees himself as a protector. He likes to envision himself as "the catcher in the rye" who would save any child that may die. I assume he likes to think that he could save any child as a sort of coping mechanism considering he couldn’t save Allie. HE couldn’t save his brother so he thinks to himself he will be able to save all of the innocent children in the future, now that he is capable of doing so. Learning the origin of the name of the books also gives us further insight to Holden's view on childhood. He sees himself as almost an adult, but still a kid. This poem conveys that Holden thinks of all kids as innocent and puts himself as the protector, this suggests that Holden thinks older kids should look out for younger kids considering no adults are there to protect these children in the hypothetical field. This shows that Holden think of adults as phonies, who don’t do what Holden thinks they should do. As repeated many times Holden does not want to become an adult because he does not want to forget about the whams of being a child and thus forgetting about how innocent children, when not being properly watched, can be harmed by themselves or others. Holden thinks adults should do more to protect children.
ReplyDeleteFor your statement on Holden's appreciation towards the youthful and innocent, I do agree that he wants the world to look up of them rather than look down because of the barrier with age. Society often condescends towards people of young age and underestimate a young person's way of thinking and understanding.When actually the young and innocent have more potential that are already developed, but it's the adult world that breaks it down and neglect their ideas. He is at the stage of his life where he has to grow up and becomes a mature young adult, but he wants to have more time as a kid because of how he isn't ready for the real world.
DeleteHolden is a great example of a teenager. Almost everyone isn't ready to grow up when they are supposed to, however, the world makes them. It makes people uneasy, unprepared and stressed trying to live a life of the unknown and doing things they have never experienced before. Some people in this transition often find this challenging and tend to become negative with heir personality in reaction to the stress. Holden is a great way of bringing light to this and I think it shows teens that everything will be okay at the end, and that it is okay to be lost in life sometimes.
DeleteI really like how you relate this to everyone around Holden's age. I too agree all teenagers at some point deal with an identity crisis and shut down because it's time to grow up. Sometimes it's nice to forget about the real life and think back to when you could be a kid with no worries. But you're right, Holden show kids that even with a rough life like his you're still able to catch up and figure it all out even if it doesn't happen at the same pace as everyone around you.
DeleteConcluding the book with chapters 18-26, J.D. Salinger wraps up Holden's character in a very simple, yet confusing way. Earlier in the book, we had all discussed the possibility that his way of coping with his brother's death and those emotions, is to call people phony and not ever really get close to anyone. We had each pegged him as an aggressive person. As the story went on and we made it into the last third of the book, we noticed that Holden started to really open up. He was making his way back home slowly, in order to give his mother time to calm down. But on his way, he got really lost. He always knew where he was but he never was really able to find himself. I really liked how he would always go into a phone booth and know he was going to call somebody from his past, but that they would understand. He never hesitated when calling an old friend, other than thinking of the time of night or situations like that. In Chapter 21 and 22, he starts talking about his brother's death again and brought up the funeral this time. He shared, "Then I thought about the whole bunch of them sticking me in a goddam cemetery and all, with my name on this tombstone and all. Surrounded by dead guys. -- I hope to hell when I do die somebody has sense enough to just dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetery." (Salinger 155) I think the fact that he wasn't able to witness the funeral, due to him being in the hospitalm actually brought on quite a bit of emotions that never helped him feel any closure. I think before Allie died, he was treated a lot differently than he is now and I think he treated himself differently as well. I think he received a lot more support before his brother's death. Whether Holden wanted to admit to it or not, he knew going home was the best place for him to be. He even admitted it felt good to be home. I think deep down he truly felt a lot of comfort with Phoebe. With the amount of times he speaks of her, and how highly he thinks of her, I understand his deep and true love for Phoebe. I think he feels a lot of support coming from Phoebe and knows that no matter how many schools he gets kicked out of, Phoebe will never get mad at him. Holden Caulfield kind of surprised me if I'm honest. I didn't think he would end up to be much a mature young man that he is but he did. He definitely matured as the story went on and in the best way possible. He opened up way more and I think if he had the opportunity to stay home instead of being sent away, he would do much better.
ReplyDeleteI love how you input this idea of getting lost on the way not directionally, but with himself. I to was surprised to see Holden grow up towards the end of the book. As the audience we get to watch him go through these changes leading him to become more aware of his emotions. It is interesting to think what would happen if Holden had the chance to stay home as opposed to being sent away again. Coming home to Phoebe felt good to him and he was able to find someone who accepted him for everything he is/does. It wouldn't be ideal for him to be sent off leaving the one person he opens up to.
DeleteJosie, I agree when you say that it would be interesting to see him succeed while staying at home. I feel like right now, although he didn't want to admit it throughout the story, home is where he needs to be. I would be healthier for him to stay home and being able to have someone to connect with like Phoebe rather then be out and feeling alone again. Why does he need to go away for school? Is there not a school close?
DeleteThe ending of the book, chapters 18-26, opened my eyes to what Holden was going through. His desire to be the "catcher in the rye" directly related to the death of his brother and honestly wrapped up the whole story. Him wanting to "catch the children falling" is him expressing that he is not ready to go into the adult world alone. I think he wants to keep the innocent children from being thrown into the "phony" adult world like he is, so that he can maintain their innocence. Holden also explains that he only liked Allie and when Phoebe freaks out and says that Allie is dead, he throws a fit. I was shocked when I read that Holden didn't attend Allie's funeral based off of the fact of him talking about how much he cared about and cherished Allie. This is the reason he is so depressed and unhappy all of the time. He never got the closure that he needed because he was unable to go to the funeral, and that impacted him probably more than he or anybody else thought it would. I remember Kenzie talking about how the duck pond is symbolism for Allie's death and I see it more true now. Since Holden is atheist, I believe that the the reason he wants to know so badly where the ducks go is because he wants to know where Allie went since he obviously doesn't believe in heaven. Also, throughout the book there is a lot mentioned about sex. It starts out talking about how Holden doesn't get with girls just for physical reasons, then moves to him being uncomfortable and just wanting to talk when he payed for the escort, and then trying to get Carl to tell him about his sex life when they met up. While at the school, he rubs the words off the wall at the school, in order to preserve the children's innocence like I said above. This last section of the book Holden has grown a lot. Although he is still dealing with the same demons, he tells about how he is ready to try in school and I feel as though he has found the thing he needs in Phoebe. She makes him feel less alone. The book ends with the sentence, “Don’t tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody” and to me that means that although he is dealing with those same problems he has grown and now values the people around him when before he believed they were all phonies and fakes. This book, although confusing, turned out to be a lot better than I had thought and I'm glad I got to read it.
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ReplyDeleteYes I don't think Holden was ready to say goodbye to Allie and he needed a way to find closure which I think he finally has after talking yo Phoebe and realizing on his own he needs to grow up. I see Phoebe as a new Allie and I agree with you when you say the book was confusing but ended up being more interesting than I thought it would be.
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