A Catcher in the Rye: Week 2
Post your second response by Tuesday, February 13. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
The Road: Week 3
Post your second response by Tuesday, February 20. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
In Chapter 8 when Holden gets on the train to New York, he lies to Ernest’s mom that he’s popular and cool. In doing this Holden is being the phony he disagrees with. I wonder if this is why he is lonely, because he feels superior when he lies which makes him feel smarter than everybody else. Also when Holden was dealing with Mrs. Morrow he tried acting older which is ironic since he hates adulthood. But maybe instead of hating it because he doesn’t want to turn into a “phony” adult he instead feels he won’t become a successful grown up. It’s weird to me that Holden is the cause of his own depression, if he has friends why won’t he just call them? Maybe he is afraid of rejection. Holden is a complex character who has mixed emotions and hasn’t established a solid personality yet. With the women visiting from Seattle, Holden tries to get them to like him but when he succeeds he just thinks they’re dumb for falling for his trick, with this cycle in play Holden is never going to find happiness and could potentially be alone forever. Phoniness is a reoccuring theme and is seen again in chapter 12 when Holden is disgusted at Ernie’s. Fancy colleges and prep school are seen in Holden’s eyes as phony and Joe Yale infuriates Holden with his insensitivity. Another theme I’ve been seeing is alienation, Holden tries to make excuses when in reality he is the one to blame for his own alienation like with D.B’s old girlfriend Lillian Simmons. He’s the one who feels awkward and decides to leave but blames it on Lillian making the silent comment that people always ruin things for him.
ReplyDeleteJosie, that was a very interesting point you made when you said that Holden might be lonely due to the fact that he feels he is better than most people. I had never thought about it like that and I kind of felt sorry for Holden until now. I agree, I think he is placing this loneliness feeling on himself by having the mind set of everyone being a phony and that he doesn't have time for them. He also displays this pattern of pushing people out of his life then the results of that is he feels very lonely and depressed. When that happens he tends to either lash out on people or will willingly talk to anyone and everyone to get himself out of that loneliness state.
DeleteJos, I like what you said about the theme of alienation. It makes sense to me now but I have never thought about it before. When you brought up the evidence of him blaming D.B.'s ex for the reason he was leaving and how people always ruin things but when in reality, he was the one who said he needed to go. Very good point.
Deletethank you Darby and Kayleana, I wonder if Holden even realizes his loneliness is caused by his own doing. I believe he pushes people out as a way to never feel what he felt when D.B. left. It's unfortunate he doesn't have the hope to believe other people out there care about him and no one purposely leaves him. I wonder what makes him decide depending on the person if he's going to lash out or willingly talk when he is in a state of lonliness.
DeleteIn the book "Catcher In the Rye", chapters 9-17 showed all of Holden tendencies and how he deals with obstacles he faces. I am enjoying the character of Holden because I think he is real. I feel as though Holden is a good kid, but finds himself faced with obstacles he cannot entirely cope with or get over. I think since Holden is not capable of overcoming some hardships in his life it has bottled him up and made himself become harsh about people and life. I believe that is where the excessive profanity comes into play and how every good situation turns out badly for him no matter how well it was going. There is also a reoccurring theme of depression with Holden, which proves my point go Holden's "realness" to reality. Though out these chapters he confesses his depression multiple times. For example, Holden states, "I wasn't sleepy or anything, but I was feeling sot of lousy. Depressed and all. I almost wished I was dead." (Salinger p.90). He then goes on in the next chapter and says, "What I really feel like though is committing suicide. I felt like jumping out a window." (Salinger p.104). I hope Holden gets the help or support he needs eventually, because these depressing thoughts are becoming more reoccurring throughout the book. I had a question to note after reading these chapters. It was on page 115 when Salinger explains the little boy singing, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye." Then Holden says hearing this little boy sing this specifically made him not feel depressed. Is this where the title of the book comes in at? I don't really understand the meaning of both the song and the title but they sound similar.
ReplyDeleteAs you mentioned Holden "wanting to jump out a window" it made me remember part of the reasoning on why he didn't. One of the reasons he thought was he would do it if somebody would cover his body up immediately after. He didn't want "stupid rubberneckers" looking at his body when we was all gory. To me this almost makes it seem like he will not get the help he needs. While sort of dark to think about, this almost makes me think of this as a symbol. He doesn't want to open up to people and show them the true him. He doesn't want to be fake yet he doesn't want fake people to judge him for how he acts.
DeleteReplying to Kayleana's observation on the kid singing that lyric, "If a body catch a body coming through the rye", I think Holden is labeled to be the 'catcher in the rye'. I suggest that the rye represents innocence and he feels that he needs to protect and shelter the youth from the adult world. Holden catching the youth from falling into the dangers of the mature world and society.
DeleteI agree with you Kayleana, Holden needs help and I hope he learns he can be happy if he wants to be and learn to see things in a different light. Thats a nice point with the title and the song, I'm not positive either but they do sound too similar for it not to mean anything so Sara I like how you pointed out that Holden is potentially the 'catcher in the rye' your definition puts things into perspective and makes sense that Holden would shelter the youth from the adult world.
DeleteAs the chapters progress, within chapter 9 to 17, there appears to be a common and reoccurring theme when Holden interacts with the city of Manhattan. It’s not just the city of Manhattan in particular, but it’s a representation of the real and grown-up world. Holden is then facing something that he’s rather cautious and uneasy with, maturity.
ReplyDeleteFrom the start of the book, Caulfield seemed to have created a facade for himself and struggles to act mature, but as the story goes along, I can suggest Holden is actually a person of innocence. For example, there was a sequence where Holden agreed to pay for an escort that the elevator operator offered for the night. Although, he was already aware what was in the upcoming and made an attempt to clean himself up for the event. He even confessed that he was a virgin and try to convince himself to get it over with. “Don’t you feel like talking for a while?” I asked. It was a childish thing to say, but I was feeling damn peculiar” ( Salinger 95 ). In the end he decided not to go through with it and just wanted to talk to Sunny, the escort.
He doesn’t seem to appreciate the adult world and society and likes to emulate factors that are of youth. Like when he mentioned his family, Caulfield has described his parents is caregivers that only does things that only benefits their agenda than their son’s thoughts and interests. Illustrated his oldest brother as someone that is ‘selling his body’ when actually his occupation is a writer in Hollywood. Then when he talks about his little sister, Phoebe, that is 10 years old and describes her to be a bright and understanding person that he’s able to express his thoughts towards without being reluctant. “You’d like her. I mean if you tell her old Phoebe something, she knows exactly what the hell you’re talking about”( Salinger 67 ). He even wanted to call her and vent during the night, but decided not to for the possibility of his mother answering it.
Holden’s behavior and thoughts towards the mature and adult world makes me convinced that he doesn’t want to grow up. He’s at the point of his life where he transitions into someone of young to growing into an adult. From his point of view, he believes that being in the adult world only entails cruelty and unjust lifestyles. He doesn’t want to join that kind of life just yet.
If he doesn't want to join that world yet why do you think he often lies about his age? He lied to the girls at the bar about his age and to the escort. I agree with what you said about him not wanting to join the cruel and unjust lifestyle but Holden is such a complex character I am not sure exactly how to comprehend all of the things he does at certain times.
DeleteI agree with Connor. Holden does things throughout the book that contradict his words and even his character. He claims he hates phonies, but he continually lies about who he is to strangers. He is immature and not ready to handle the adult world, but he finds ways to insert himself into that lifestyle.
DeleteHolden is indeed a very complex character and is often hard to follow, but I love that about this book. It really portrays a teenager who is turning into an adult. His character is so realistic of teenagers and the ways we think. However, I agree its really hard to follow the book with Holden's character. You think you understand him and his intentions, but then he goes against those intentions and then the reader goes right back to trying to figure him out. He kind of makes me mad because he has all of these opportunities to take and he just blows it all off then complains about his life.
DeleteI feel the same way, the complexity of his character makes the book more enjoyable but also tough. It also gives every reader a different impression. He can be immature or adult like, phony or real, conceited and judgmental or kind and genuine, etc. There are MANY different ways that he portrays himself that can stick to each reader and help them develop their sense of what his true identity is.
DeleteResponding to those that are wondering as to why Holden is a pathological liar, as a possibility, is that maybe he's trying to cover up his real life that helps cushion his mental trauma. He has a life that is filled with anger and depression and he wants to feel better about himself by make this fake persona and life to escape his reality. It's hard to comprehend, but just like you've state, he's a complicated character.
DeleteI agree Sara, however, from what he has told the audience in this book his life doesn't seem to be all that dramatic to make him a pathological liar like this. I know his brother died and that is rough, but his family seems to care by putting him in these nice schools to help his future and they seem supportive. I feel like he is a little ungrateful about this and takes it for granted.
DeleteI agree Kayleana, I think your point about him being ungrateful also has to do with his immaturity and lack of concern for his future. Obviously, he isn't appreciative of his parents sending him to these nice schools but him flunking out of them shows that he doesn't care as well as the fact that he won't take control over his life because of his inability to mature.
DeleteDarby I agree, the book wouldn't be the same if Holden was a well behaved kid and wasn't a mystery to the readers. It would be boring so it keeps the readers intrigued that Holden is so unpredictable and doesn't have a consistent personality.
DeleteDarby, Part of me believes Holden I putting up a facade about his future, I agree he doesn't seem to have it figured out but I also think he realizes how important it is and that's why he makes fun of adulthood so he doesn't have to admit that he's getting closer to it with still no idea of what he's going to do.
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ReplyDeleteAs I continue reading the book "The Catcher in the Rye" I quickly learn more and more about Holden Caulfield and the issues he faces when interacting people. Throughout this second section of the reading Holden has many interactions with people, all of which contribute to show how he handles situations. He speaks with 3 girls at a bar, a prostitute and many others. When he speaks with the 3 girls he originally presents himself as a phony, he tries to appear as a player and appear older than he really is. He asks them to dance and once he is dancing with one of them he tries to have a real conversation with her. She however doesn't hear him or chooses not to hear him. For example " "...You know when a girl's a really a terrific dancer?" "Wudga say?" she said. She wasn't listening to me, even. Her mind was wandering all over the place" (page 71) This shows that Holden is lonely because you can tell he wants to have a genuine conversation but this girl is just at the club to drink. After they finish dancing he refers to her as a moron several times, Holden seems to think that anyone who he cannot have a conversation with is merely a moron. Later on, after the bar Holden returns to the hotel he has rented and on the way up the elevator he is asked if he is "Inarested in a little tail.." he says yes and has a girl sent to his room for a "throw" once she arrives Holden seems to get uncomfortable and just wants to speak with her. Instead of having "a throw" they just talk and he says he'll pay her anyway. To me this makes it seem as though Holden is just lonely and wants someone to talk to. He didn't want to talk to anyone he actually knew though because then he would feel judged. He chose to speak with this girl so that he would not feel judged- with this in mind the role this girl could be compared to Ackley back at school. Both characters are talked and thought of as inferior to Holden.
ReplyDeleteFebruary 14, 2018 at 1:20 PM
It is kind of funny because he complains about all these phonies but he tends to become one when we changes the way he talks and even his name when talking to specific people. Maybe this is a way that he copes with his problems by pretending to be someone he isn't to escape from his life for a little while? Or maybe is it just purely entertaining to him?
DeleteConnor I liked how you input Holden didn't want to speak to anyone he knew about his problems because he didn't want to feel judged. This would make sense as to why a lot of times he pushes his friends and family away when he needs someone to talk to the most. It's funny Kayleana, I agree he uses fake personas to escape his life but he still talks about his 'old' identity as if it was the same for the character he created.
DeleteAs I continued reading chapters 9 through 17, it becomes more and more apparent to me that Holden has awful people skills. He looks down on almost everyone; calling them phonies and fakes while sometimes even becoming a phony and a fake himself. The way he represents himself to the people in this section of the book, he is acting the way he claims he hates. When he's talking to the 3 women in the Lavender Room, he claims to be older and more mature and tries to woo the one woman. Although she isn't interested, he tries to make conversation and gets shut down quickly. "'You're a very good conversationalist,' I told her. 'You know that?' 'What?' I let it drop" (72). Same as with the prostitute. He claims to be older than he actually is and when he decides he just wants to talk she doesn't want to. I think that since Holden surrounds himself with what he calls phonies and fakes, he's very lonely and craves human interaction. This is expressed when he keeps wanting to call his sister Phoebe and Jane Gallagher as well as make a date with Sally. Another reoccurring theme I see is his depression. Everything makes him depressed. The Lavender Women waking up early for a show, the empty lobby, etc. Holden has many things that have happened that could be contributing to his depression such as the death of his brother Allie and neglect from his parents. He often makes comments about committing suicide, "What I really felt like, though, was committing suicide, I felt like jumping out the window" (104). Another thing I noticed was that Holden has a kind heart and doesn't like violence. In these chapters he does a few small kind acts, like giving money to the nuns (110), buying his sister an album (116), and helping the little girl tie her skates(119).
ReplyDeleteI have noticed that Holden does do these little nice things for people though out the book and really does have great intentions, however, he needs to learn how to consecutively be a kind person. I feel like he needs someone to actually sit down and listen to him and give him the support he needs. He is reaching out for this attention by thinking about wanting to kill myself or by being depressed often, and I feel like when he goes home things will become better, because he will have that emotional support especially from his sister.
DeleteIn response of the observation that you described Holden's depression, it think that the city (world of the adults) are enhancing his depression. Being in a setting that is surrounded by maturity and grown-ups is causing to worsen his mental state and he wants to seek out comfort from youth and innocence. Characters like Phoebe and Jane, both depicted as youthful and innocent; he wishes to recall or reach out to those of youth to help stabilize and ease his mind.
DeleteI never thought about him reaching out to them as a form of trying to regain his innocence and stabilize him so that's a really good point
DeleteIn chapters 9 through 17 of J.D. Salinger´s, ¨A Catcher in the Rye,¨ Holden is still very stubborn with his actions. He easily gets mad at things people do or say for the smallest reasons. He believes he isn´t smart and won´t get through school at all which is why he ran to New York but I believe he doesn´t even try to be smart or get involved with academics. He always seems to be judging someone or complaining that something isn´t going how he wants it to. He was getting frustrated with Jane because he had these dreams about them that he wanted to fulfill but when Jane had turned him down he got very upset with her. He called her a ¨Royal pain the ass.¨ Which upset Jane and made her cry and he tried apologizing but it ended up not working out. I think that´s his problem. He will get angry at someone and won´t think about what´s coming out of his mouth and upset the other more. The way he talks and acts makes me believe that something in his past (could be the death of Allie) has affected him to always be so stubborn. His rudeness seems to be a repeating process throughout the book and I feel like he needs to fix his actions in order for people to care for him and for him to have true friends. He seems to be a hypocrite as well because he seems to complain about others but turn around and do the same thing. I feel like his best option would to be to just go home and get his head in the right place. Nothing will truly make him happy unless if he does something about his actions. He´s looking for happiness in all the wrong places like when he ordered for a prostitute to his room and even with her there he turned her down because he wasn´t truly happy.
ReplyDeleteMolly I like where you're headed, I agree Holden is a hypocrite in many situation including 'phoniness'. You're right Holden will never be happy if he does nothing about his actions and I think that's the problem because he doesn't know how to deal with his problems which causes him to lash out and become even more lonely. I think the prostitute was to show Holden does want someone to talk to but doesn't want the judgement that comes when the person is someone he knows because he doesn't want to cause more dissapointment.
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