The Catcher in the Rye: Week 1
Post your first response by Tuesday, February 6. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
The Road: Week 3
Post your second response by Tuesday, February 20. Throughout the week, engage in discussion by replying to a combination of six posts and replies.
In the book "Catcher In the Rye" J.D Salinger really takes time to truly develop his characters. The main character and narrator, Holden Caulfield, is a very interesting person. When I first started reading the book I was skeptical about him and really didn't like his attitude. First impression of him was that he was this mean, irresponsible, self-centered, know-it-all. He to me was too opinionated, and I found his personality very aggressive in a way. I didn't like the fact that he was taking his education for granted by getting kicked out of all of these schools he was sent to by his parents. He also would make fun of other people for his own entertainment when he was bored. However, as the book went on my views toward him changed. The changing point was on page 36 when Holden said, "I asked Mal if he minded if Ackley came along with us. The reason I asked was because Ackley never did anything on Saturday night, except stay in his room and squeeze his pimples or something." (J.D. Salinger). This changed my perspective of Holden and made me think he really does have good intentions sometimes, because he invited Ackley out with him and his friend. I thought that was very kind and thoughtful of him since Ackley never goes anywhere with friends. He is also smarter than what he makes himself out to be. I think if he actually wanted to try in school he would pass his classes. I say this because there are little clues in the book, like, on page 40 he describes Stradlater as "unscrupulous". Someone that uneducated would not have that vocabulary. I did have some questions that I was still left with at the end of chapter 8. First of all, I am wondering if Holden may have some sort of untreated mental illness. I say this because he is very hot tempered, and the littlest things anger him. What really made me wonder this was on page 38-39 when it said, "I was only thirteen, and they were going to have me psychoanalyzed and all, because I broke all the windows in the garage." and then when it said, "...and I broke all the goddam windows with my fist, just for the hell of it." (J.D. Salinger). That to me is not a normal response to a situation. Then as the book continues he suddenly gets very lonely and sad. around chapter 8. Sometimes people do all of a sudden get lonely, so I didn't think anything of it at first, but then he starts to get so lonely that it almost angers him.
ReplyDeleteHolden is a complex character; he is both inconsistent and contradictory, he is both arrogant and insecure, he is both judgmental and compassionate. He is also an unreliable narrator. How much of what he says is actually true? Continue to notice when Holden reveals his vulnerability.
DeleteI agree with the impressions, and changing views, of Holden that you got from the first part of the book. It started as a very aggressive and mean character, but then changed into a compassionate and vulnerable guy that is trying to hide that part of himself. I am wondering why he seems to be trying to hide that side of him? Is it just a high school teenage boy insecurity or is it deeper than that?
DeleteI think he is hiding that vulnerable guy because he definitely doesn't want to be seen a soft to anyone. Especially to his "popular" friends. Now guys can be soft and share feeling with no judgement but definitely in the 1950's males were not allowed to be seen crying, or sharing any time of sadness. That's one reason why I think he can truly be himself around Ackley because Ackley isn't apart of the popular crowd and he knows Ackley won't judge him.
DeleteI agree as well with the impressions on Holden in the beginning but I also relate to him in a way with the tone of his sarcasm which is something I know I do a lot to relate with others. Clearly something has caused him to be "hidden" like Makenzie said and I think it has something to do with his childhood he said he'd get in trouble if he shared.
DeleteConsidering Booms' question, 'How much of what he says is actually true?', that there is connection as to why he tries to act tough and his pattern of lying. Holden acts and says lies just as a cover up so people won't know what he truly feels and express. He then suffers from mental trauma like depression and hatred towards the world. That is another connection with the death of his brother that is probably a reason why he hasn't come to terms with society.
DeleteIn responce to Sara, I never really thought about his brother's death making him this closed up and mad, but it makes sense as to why he tends to push everyone out of his life when someone he was so close to dies. He probably told his brother a lot and now that he is gone he probably doesn't trust anyone to tell them his problems. He might keep all of his problems and thoughts to himself and then he explodes in anger when we can't keep all of his emotions to himself.
DeleteReading ahead a little bit this now makes sense in a recent chapter when Holden stops himself from calling his friends causing himself to be lonely. It could definitely be because he is afraid to get close with someone again like he was with his brother.
DeleteIn the very first page Holden makes it clear he’s not going to talk about his childhood but
ReplyDeletehe leaves us with the appearance that his parents are “touchy as hell.” Holden has a negative
view of adults and maintains this theme when talking about his headmaster. Part of the reason
Holden has such a negative impression of adults is because he perceives them as all phony.
This brings out Holden’s voice as a speaker because I know he’s going to be straightforward
and stubborn from his sarcastic yet get to the point type of attitude. He is an outsider who
doesn’t like his classmates as we can tell when he describes the football game where he stands
outside of the game. Because he feels like an outsider he rejects the rules imposed by society.
It is said Holden was kicked out of his most recent school for failing 4/5 classes. If Holden
believes the adult world is phony then it only makes sense he wouldn’t want to academically
succeed because he wants to avoid becoming apart of the “phony world” and passing his
classes will take him a step in this phony world. When he is explaining to to Mr. Spencer what
he would’ve done in his shoes he explains how his mind wandered to the ducks in Central Park
and where they go during the winter. Holden is obviously curious and because this was such a
random topic to switch to in his mind I wonder if ducks will hold a significant meaning in the
future.
Holden absolutely hates phonies and complains about them, but why? What does he consider a phony? The ducks do give more depth to Holden; what might they symbolize or mean to him?
DeleteI think one of the strong reasons as to why he zoned out and started thinking of the ducks is the loss of his brother. The ducks symbolize the 'leaving' that he has had a personal experience. A lot of his anger, he introduces after his brother's passing. I think the ducks, as they leave for the winter, and his curiosity of where they go relates to his confusion and lack of closure with his brother's death.
DeleteI agree with you Josie when you bring up the idea of Holden avoiding to be apart of the society as he interprets it as a phony world. He believes this so much that he will always go against the mainstream. I feel like that would be tiring to have to try and go against people ALL THE TIME. Josie's response made me think why does he believe this world is so phony? Obviously not everyone and everything is fake in this world, and I feel like he will begin to see that as he gets older and matures.
DeleteI never thought of it lije that but now hearing you say that about the leaving symbolism it makes a lot of sense Makenzie.
DeleteIn response of Ms. Booms' question, I believe that he defines people that are rather shallow or conceited to be 'phony' and 'unreal'. Although, I must say that Holden can be at times be hypocritical. Considering that he's willingly hanging out with people that are 'phony' like Stradlater and Mr. Spencer that both neglect on saying what they truly feel. The reason he hang out with this people is to avoid the feeling of lonely and such.
DeleteI never thought about the reason why he hangs out with the popular crowd is because they don't talk about their feelings ever. I think that was a really good point to make as to why he is going against his own reasoning and beliefs to be friends with them.
DeleteJosie, I never thought about the fact of him being an outsider but your summary helped me see that. With him staying away from the game rather than going in and participating, and that symbolizing him being an outsider makes sense. I also liked the connection you made to him thinking the adult world is phony. That definitely relates to him being immature and childlike. Not only with his actions, but with the vocabulary he has.
DeleteI like how you focus on whether or not the duck will be an important figure. It's something very small but could matter later in the book.
DeleteThere’s a theme of alienation between the main character and how they interact with the other roles. Holden uses this type of detachment as a defense mechanism when there are times where he becomes uncomfortable or questioned. He often labels the world and people to be ‘phony’ and distances himself from others. Holden is depicted as someone that is an outsider and often to be excluded from public events in Pencey. For example, the beginning of the novel it introduced Holden Caulfield as the one of the few that didn’t attend the special football game and just observing the stadium from a hill. “ I just didn’t want to hang around anymore. I made me too sad and lonesome.” ( Salinger 51 ) He is convinced that there isn’t a place where he feels like he’s needed or at least have the ability to express his thoughts without having to regret saying them.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story so far, Holden’s red hunting hat has become a recurring feature and is progressively mentioned that seems to have a purpose for the story. What I suggest is that the hat is a symbol of both his individuality and security. “…I sort of closed one eye, like I was taking aim at it. “This a people shooting hat”, I said “ I shoot people with this hat,”( Salinger 22 ). There’s a drastic change of attitude that depends on the situation and contexts that the main character faces. It seems that he’s only comfortable with expressing himself, but only when he’s alone. When he’s with some other person like Ackley or Stradlater, Caulfield’s behavior is somewhat closed-off or confined to his thoughts and wishes not to verbally speak out his impression.
I do agree that Holden becomes sort of closed-off while around Stradlater, but I think he has a little bit more comfort when he is around Ackley. I think Holden may aspire to be 'in' with Stradlater, and guys like him, since he is the guy that is detached from school games and events, but feels better around Ackley because he perceives himself to be higher up on the social scale than Ackley is.
DeleteI agree with exactly what Mackenzie says. Holden feels closed off around Stradlater and wants to be in the "cool group" with him which would explain why he wrote the composition for him. I also agree that he feels more confident when he is around Ack since he thinks he is better than Ack. It seems to me that Holden is very judgmental- he always points out the negatives about everyone else but rarely talks about their positives. This conveys that he is probably judgmental towards others because he is very insecure about himself.
DeleteI think that it is odd that Holden believes that the world and people are phony, however, he still is trying to get in with the popular crowd, even though they are probably one of the phoniest crowds at Pencey. It's almost like he is hypocritical towards his own thoughts. He preaches about how much he hates fake people who are mainstream and follow leaders, yet that's kind of what he is doing by trying to get in the well known crowd like Stradlater.
DeleteI agree 100% with Kayleana Holden seems lost even though he has strong opinions on the world around him, which is why we see him contradict himself in moments explained above. He has a reasoning for everything as if he always has to have a comeback for someone who could try and question him.
DeleteConnor and Kayleana both make really good points. He does see the worst in people and honestly never has anything positive to say, that definitely relates to his insecurities. He talks about how much he doesn't like Ack and how he's so weird but continues to hangout with him or be around him because he finds comfort in him and he is most like him, rather than Stradlater who is more popular and superficial.
DeleteIn the first eight chapters of “Catcher In The Rye,” written by J.D. Salinger, there is a lot that happens. The main character, Holden Caulfield, is a very aggressive and troubled teenager. Since the first page, his language and word choices exemplify, to me, that he does not care about many things. He goes to visit his old teacher, Mr. Spencer, at the beginning of the second chapter (page 6). My first impression of Caulfield is that he is a very angry kid. When he is meeting with Mr. Spencer, I start to comprehend a new impression of him; a compassionate kid. He doesn’t seem to be too upset about being kicked out of the school, but he does seem to be bothered by the disappointment he is granting onto Mr. Spencer. On pages 38 and 39, Caulfield introduces his brother and explains how he became very angry afterwards. “I was only thirteen, and they were going to have me psychoanalyzed and all, because I broke all the windows in the garage” (J.D. Salinger). Caulfield describes this as his reaction to his brother’s death. I think there is some sort of mental disorder or depression. He complains of how lonely he is and how intense his loneliness becomes. I think the loneliness has been around since his brother’s death. I believe his anger was created then as well. Holden Caulfield seems to be so compassionate throughout the first eight chapters. He is aggressive and angry, but the cause of his fight with his roommate, Stradlater, is based on his understanding of Stradlater’s disrespect towards an old friend of his. When Caulfield found out that Stradlater was taking his childhood friend, Jane, on a date on pages 30 and 31, he demonstrates a nervous sensation. He started acting with a protective-type of vibe. By the end of the date, on page 43, Caulfield becomes very angry finding out that his roommate possibly has done the deed to his innocent childhood friend. I think some of the anger was brought up in his compassionate and protective attitude. He was demonstrating a very strong feeling, then quickly became very lonely and sad. I think these feelings represent a mental disorder like depression. I think these feelings a disorder started developing when he lost his brother.
ReplyDeleteI agree, I wonder if Holden developed PTSD from when his brother died? This would make sense considering he seemed to be very close with his brother. I believe that part of his outburst towards Stradlater could have been partially caused by triggering that PTSD. Right before his outburst Stradlater complains about the descriptive composition that Holden wrote for him- Stradlater wanted something about a house or a room but Holden wrote about Allies glove. Maybe Stradlaters anger about "some stupid glove" tipped Holden over the edge.
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DeleteResponding to Mackenzie's observations about the first 8 chapters, I do agree on the fact that ever since the death of his brother, Allie, Holden has then developed a mental trauma because of that shortcoming. It is a plausible reason as to why he isn't quite stable when it comes to sequences that are out of his comfort. When discussing about his brother, it seemed like Allie was the 'perfect kid' that was both brilliant and friendly. Could it possibly because of his parents were constantly comparing him to his flawless brother and parental neglect that caused Holden to be the 'troubled' kid? Did Caulfield create this persona as the 'troubled' kid to despite his parents?
DeleteHolden's reaction to Allie's death is very revealing as his writing the essay. I personally perceived Holden as pretty unlikable, but these two pieces give him much more depth. His anger and judgments seem to be more of a defense.
DeleteI agree Mrs. Booms. I think they were just negative characteristics in the beginning but now that we know of his childhood they are his defensive coping skills to dealing with his feelings.
DeleteSara I think your questions are rally thoughtful! I hadn't perceived his brother in that way but the 'troubled' Holden makes sense because it very well could be a way to spite his parents. Especially because he doesn't seem all that remorseful about being kicked out of multiple schools.
DeleteIn J.D. Salinger's "Catcher in the Rye" we follow Holden Caulfield, a teenage boy who was been kicked out of multiple boarding schools. Salinger chooses to write with a stream of consciousness style. Choosing to write with this style makes it very easy for Salinger to convey specific details about how Holden feels about certain people or events. For example when Holden thinks about Ackley Salinger writes "I never once saw him brush his teeth... they always looked mossy and awful... he had a lot of pimples...I wasn't too crazy about him, to tell you the truth." This specifically conveys how Holden feels and makes it really clear to the audience as to how the main character feels about certain people. While this is sometimes very simple and clear it can also be confusing and cryptic. For example when Holden thinks about Stradlater at one point Salinger writes “ He’s conceited, but he's very generous in some things...Say he had a tie on that you liked helluva lot.. You know what’d he do?... He’d give you the goddam tie” but Stradlater is also construed be a jerk for example “ He hated it when you called him a moron...Why the hell don'tcha shut up when I tellya to?” The stream of consciousness in these examples really show that while showing great detail into what Holden thinks it can still be confusing. Considering that everybody's opinions change over time, even a short amount of time, the style can really cause a back and forth of what Holden thinks or make it hard to track how he feels at a certain point.
ReplyDeleteEven though his stream of consciousness can sometimes become confusing when opinions of others change in Holden's perspective, I think it would be even more confusing if Salinger had it a different voice. The thoughts running though Holden's mind are key clues as to why he acts the way he is. Holden is not a straight forward guy. He is very unpredictable and acts on impulsion often. He is a very hard guy to read, even when the author gives us insight into his thought process, so it would be challenging to try and figure out why he acts the way he does if us as readers didn't have his thoughts as clues.
DeleteBased on Connor's observation, I’ve realized that Holden’s description and thought on other people indicates that he’s a bit judgmental. I find it odd that Holden seems to have high expectations when it comes to looks when it comes to accomplices and friends. That he seems to critiquing others' appearances when he himself might not be the most handsome or good-looking in Pencey. Why do you think he’s like that?
DeleteResponding to Kayleana, I think the perspective of Holden as the author has a strong impact on how the audience is able to understand the book. I agree, that if we were to read from somebody else's perspective of Holden, then I don't think this book would be as authentic as it is.
DeleteJ. D. Salinger’s novel “The Catcher In The Rye” (so far) is about a boy who has moved from school to school and who has just got kicked out of Pencey Prep. Holden Caulfield is talking directly to the reader (first person), telling what he explains is “the madman stuff that happened” before he was out there “taking it easy”. He begins by telling the reader of the day he left Pencey. He goes to his teachers home to visit before he left the school. Holden isn’t a good student. He doesn’t try and I feel like he has no one who really pushes him. The teacher on the other hand was trying to open his eyes to what he was doing. He began by asking him what else he could of done as a teacher he help him not fail, then if he felt ANYTHING about being kicked out of the school, and then told him that he he had no concern for his future. He said, “I’d like to put some sense into that head of yours boy. I’m trying to help you. I’m trying to help you, if I can,”(14). After his talk with the teacher, Holden felt bad because he knew that nothing was going to change and that his teacher was wasting his time. He describes his relationships with Akley, his neighbor in the dorms, and Stradlater, his roomate. From what I gathered, he doesn’t have very good relationships with people. He continues to call both these boys “morons” and talks negatively about people saying they are “phony” and always seems to have negative opinions. The way that Holden speaks is very repetitive. He repeats the words “and all” constantly, as well as repeats his sentences although he mentioned he hates when people do that (10). His constant use of “goddam” becomes really annoying, but it brings out his voice in the novel. Also, he mentions that he acts young for his age; that his dad and many other people have pointed it out to him. He says, “And yet I still act sometimes like I was only about twelve. Everybody says that, especially my father,”(9). I think this will be a constant theme in the book because throughout the chapters (1-8) there are many instances where he acts childish, and immature. One example is when he gets in the fight with Stradlater and gets punched in the face. He says, “Get your dirty stinking moron knees off my chest,”(44). This phrase, along with others that were said, his constant need/want to lie and his lack of concern for his future, show a lack of maturity in him.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your post it made me think: The way Holden uses the phrase "and all" makes him seem wise and experienced yet he also admits he is immature. To me this eludes the fact that he has self esteem issues- He likes to think of himself as wise yet he also feels that that is not true.
DeleteI agree. He places himself higher up over people making himself seem more experienced than others but shows signs of immaturity and like you said, admits that he is childish. So it kind of misleads the audience when they are thinking about the person Holden is and his identity.
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